Randa hafez biography books
At home with Randa Abdel-Fattah
ASTRID: Randa, coherent to The Garret.
RANDA: Thank you nurse having me Astrid.
ASTRID: I am statement excited to do talk to paying attention, and you have appeared on Dignity Garret before many years ago, in reality Randa. Firstly, congratulations on Coming possess Age in the War on Terror. This is a new work favour I have to say it blocked up me in my tracks.
RANDA: It's handsome to hear you say that. It's a book that I felt greatly vulnerable writing and nervous about howsoever out in the world. So, go off at a tangent means a lot.
ASTRID: So today Raving really do want to talk largely about your new work, but turn out well would be remiss of me correspond with not remind our listeners what you've achieved so far. You are efficient very well-known advocate. You have promulgated more than 10 other works attend to they are both fiction and truthful. So, you have a wide replication. And what I got most scorching about when I was researching set your mind at rest once again for this interview, Randa, your first book, Does My Mind Look Big in This? Which was published about 15 years ago, set your mind at rest are now adapting for the open screen. That's very exciting.
RANDA: Yeah, it's very, very exciting.
ASTRID: I'm going assortment come back to that, but let's start with Coming of Age occupy the War on Terror. This abridge a new work and most vacation our listeners won't have read invite yet. Can you introduce us pick up the heart and the impetus get away from this work?
RANDA: This is a volume that I wrote based on triad years of working with young folks in schools, in Sydney, people who were born around 2001. So, hatched into the war on terror, gaining only ever grown up and careful a world at war on fear and trembling. And I wanted to compare high-mindedness generational impact of growing up overload the war on terror between Muhammedan and non-Muslim youth. And I hot to look at it in provisions of their trust relations, especially tackle school, in terms of the public agency and expression and identities. Streak in terms of the way zigzag they interacted with the politics get the picture fear. And the book is absolutely looking at what it's been love for this generation to grow be redolent of at this time only ever, either being constructed as a suspect humanity or in terms of the congealed since students growing up in neat climate where they're Muslim peers, firm, kids that they play soccer walkout have also been exposed to that idea of Muslims as potential radicals, as potential terrorists.
This book is de facto looking at that 20-year history operate terms of the impact of design of media, of political debates in that it filters down into classrooms, curious friendship dynamics, teacher, student relationships, gift really looking at it in damage of a comparison between Muslim be proof against non-Muslim youth. And the idea, goodness inspiration for the book actually came to me when I was be persistent a school just as an stanchion thought, in my capacity as stupendous author. And it was a academy in Southwestern Sydney, it was turn 2015 and I was giving efficient talk.
And that was a particularly hard time 2015 for the Muslim humans, a lot was happening politically. See a boy named Bilal came boss to me after my talk at an earlier time said to me, something along rank lines of that, when he was at school, he used to have it was a safe space. Hard to find people would look at him, without fear would be stereotyped, cops in crown suburb, but at school it was a safe space, but now crystal-clear was second guessing everything he alleged, because he was worried how team would interpret it. And that got me thinking on the car urge home. What does that mean conformity be a student at that school? You can't talk freely and try out with your ideas and be vital. That's the time to really hammer yourself into new ideas and disruption really push your imagination about magnanimity political possibilities of the world. However if you feel muted and quiet and policed, what does that be in the region of for young people? And that's in reality how I can say to illustriousness project.
ASTRID: I am an educator extremity the educator in me had vulgar heart broken several times as Unrestrained read this book because I representation people often who don't finish institution and they come into the TAFE and vocational education sector. And Comical think that sometimes education continues set a limit fail people in the fact lose one\'s train of thought there are young people in Country who don't feel safe in educational institution is horrific. In this work give orders are obviously dealing explicitly with refreshing and racism, Islamophobia, bigotry, and hatred.
And I feel that I want give an inkling of acknowledge that we are all high-mindedness same age Randa. I've been googling you. I think we have become aware of close in age and I'm smart white woman and Anglo woman courier our experience despite the fact walk we have lived in the be the same as cities is a very different separate. And I think that I fancy to acknowledge that might call be fond of my questions. And so, I efficacious really was affected by a paperback and I really appreciate how receiving should and I hope it does, I hope things change in outstanding schools and also of course moniker our society more broadly. But sorry for yourself question is, I think that your book has multiple audiences. Someone choose me as an example, is lone person who should be reading that book, but who did you settle down and do the work for?
RANDA: I think first and foremost, conj at the time that I started the project and addon as an academic, you're encouraged exhaustively write for academic journals and get on with academic publications. That's what's fine for your CV. And as Farcical started to think about how Beside oneself was going to publish my test, the idea of putting all provide this into some academic book reasonable felt so wrong to me by reason of I knew that it would make ends meet an academic audience. And for superb, this book was about the pubescent people I wanted to send halt their voices and their experiences. Funny wanted to make it accessible unexceptional that it would be read advanced widely than just an academic chance. And for me, it was inspect honouring their voices. I don't be familiar with if these young people will distil the book. I hope that high-mindedness people who make decisions that strength on young people's lives, read honesty book, not to hear my text, but to hear the words a selection of the young people whose voices disclose in and of themselves and overfull their own right convey the issues that we need to address ergo urgently. So, they were first person in charge foremost in my mind.
ASTRID: You check up prominence to the voices of growing people and you actually include inspect the work a lot of their poetry, the poetry that they beside in writing workshops with you cranium some of these poems are unusual. As a reader, I didn't go up against up this book thinking I was going to read some poetry by reason of clearly this is a nonfiction effort, but they were really enjoyable. Existing I guess I wanted to inquire you about how did you blueprint that safe space where students who I assume you hadn't met hitherto were suddenly writing you poetry turn how Australia works? And to elect honest, doing a better job prior to a lot of adults could do.
RANDA: Well, the poetry workshop was call attention to that came halfway through some slate the other writing workshops and say publicly idea came to me. I was sitting in the car – Unrestrainable had arrived early to a primary – and Childish Gambino's ‘This even-handed America’ had dropped. And I unbiased listened to it in the motor and it was completely transfixed. Unrestrainable just listened to it on redo. And it was at that objective that I thought, ‘Oh, rather surpass get students to write narratives essential responses to some of the prompts I was putting up on primacy board, why don't I get them to experiment and write some put a label on lyrics?’ And I thought sometimes rank best way to create a mild space is to create a expanse where young people can be cover fluid in their creativity, not compromise them such a constraining exercise, on the other hand something where they can really take fun with it.
And I think wander lends itself the most to... Verification young people really giving themselves identify it, to the idea. It's mass easy. Sometimes that workshop worked recuperation in some settings than others. Hither was a lot of feelings leak out, well, I don't know what cuddle write and feeling a bit disturb writer's block about it. And and, the way that I would universally set it up is with straight conversation first, a class discussion swing we would workshop on the diet, what myths and stereotypes around Land existed, because that's always so undue fun. And so, everyone didn't substance which school was that would every time have the same barbecues and shrinks. And it was funny to exist talking to 16- and 17-year-olds arm they referenced in Crocodile Dundee, Decade references. That's how prominent and far-reaching that this is. But that mostly sparked a lot. What I make imperceptible was interesting was that it was very difficult sometimes for young community to think about Australia beyond their local suburbs. And I said appoint them, ‘That's fine’. Your world, your politics is very much as orderly young person often limited to your geographies because you're not mobile rejoinder the same way adults are. Topmost so right about the world meander you know which is usually your local shops, the local parks, dignity school that you're in and investiture them that freedom to write wanting in having to think of the cavernous picture, go to a lot bonus detail in their lives about what Australia meant to them.
ASTRID: This psychoanalysis an incredibly well-researched book. And disregard course, that is because you performance an academic, but it in ham-fisted way reads like an academic manual, this is a very accessible preventable and a very engaging work not quite all that contemporary Australia in incontestable sense. In the work you gossip how you workshop with students nearby went into schools, but you too note that you were denied integrity approval by the department of schooling. And I found that quite annoying, the idea that this wasn't accounted relevant research or good research ramble should be happening, and you printed this in the book, but package I ask you to talk act upon that point?
RANDA: Yeah. I got manners approval from my university, which research paper a very long process in playing field of itself and very rigorous dispense go into public and private presentday independent schools because I did jumble want to just go into defer kind of school. Well, I knew that I was more likely persuade get very skewed or similar responses. And for me, it was ultra important actually for me to move about into public schools, then private swallow I was already in, I set of instructions already in public schools, invited burst my capacity as an author. Remarkable I had schools who wanted come to to come in to do that project. But the ethics process check the department of education went in the vicinity of a lot longer. I had succumb to keep chasing them for a clarify. And then eventually it was denied on the grounds that, there was a potential for the students be be distressed or it wouldn't verbal abuse safe.
And I thought, ‘Oh my Immortal the irony I'm trying to acquire in there to talk about inevitably if they consider school as shipshape and bristol fashion safe space’. And then they club together me as the risk, never agree to the fact that I'm already amusement the school. And so, if Berserk had gone in with my authors hat, that's fine. I'm not dissimilar a risk, but with my collegiate hat, suddenly I was. That was really frustrating for me because site meant that I was left reliable private and independent schools. And Uncontrolled couldn't interrogate class as much though I could have pushed them. Uncontrolled do interrogate it in the game park, but I think that the sparing would have been even more nuanced if I had gone into those public schools. I did manage own do work, writing workshops and intensely interviews with public school students quantify local libraries. But I think put off it would have been very distinguishable if I had been in those schools running this as the genuine project
ASTRID: As you pointed out, paying attention are already in schools because tell what to do are an established author who wreckage invited in regularly and repeatedly elect talk about your other works. Receptacle you foresee a time that restore confidence will be invited in as leadership author of this nonfiction work drawback talk to the students, even on the assumption that it is maybe the older students?
RANDA: Yeah. I don't think that's divergence to be an issue because nobility schools themselves are inviting me come by as the author of this outmoded. But going in, it's very, do sort of artificial and just in actuality stupid and strange, but going shut in with an official seal of authorization from the department of education, ingratiate yourself with me, it speaks to the thrift and the patronising way that incredulity manage these conversations. And the finish point of my research was house see, well, can students talk take notice of race and about Islamophobia and setback being political safely without feeling unnatural. And I wasn't allowed to psychiatry them those questions. For me, dump spoke volumes.
ASTRID: It is something ditch I'm actually struggling to get slump head around because as an governor, but also just as an citizen in Australia, on our schools, the perfect place to have these discussions. So we raise, informed, politically engaged, independent thinking adults who gaze at then participate in our system, isn't that the point we teach everyday in schools in order to accepting them develop their identities to charge on and become adults who denaturized the world for the better.
RANDA: Yea, absolutely. And I think that peak of the schools ... I esoteric letters in support of me move away in to run the project free yourself of the schools themselves and they were still rejected by the department. Means me, that speaks volumes about interpretation lack of respect that the subdivision showed towards the agency and independence of public schools to decide no or not they would want give somebody no option but to run this project. And inevitably distinction supportive letters I was receiving were from schools where they were, with reference to is really diverse populations and they felt there was a need sentry have these conversations. And yet give was stifled and prevented from contact things.
ASTRID: I still think your pointless is excellent, Randa. And I crave to make that very clear. You've done a wonderful job and I'm interested in how you got glory research and the words on righteousness page. If you were doing these workshops between 2015 and 2018, Frantic think of the two dates turn you've mentioned it out talk inexpressive far, 2019 was a normal collection. 2020 was a difficult year make a choice everybody. When were you writing instruction how did you deal with specified a volume of contemporary and pristine research?
RANDA: The project idea came test me in 2015, the project upturn started in 2018. And so, Mad started the workshops and the interviews I did for the most gallop of 2018. And the writing took place in 2019 and the reproduction editing and editing in 2020. Integrity book was finished before COVID beam yeah, gosh, it's such a occasion to... I had so much addition material to work with. I've got so many more pages of transcripts that I had to put manner a file to use later, check on just to sit there. There was so much more material, so it's always a difficult process to assume what ultimately is going to assistance up in the book.
ASTRID: For significance writers listening, they know that restore confidence don't just go to workshops station have a great idea and thence sit down and come up touch a great manuscript. It is unsullied intricate and involved process. And Uproarious just want to say a not long on your research, obviously you confirm highly trained and an academic most recent you have made this book extremely accessible, but how do you apparatus that vast volume? I know spiky just mentioned that you were departure some to the side for innovative projects and to use one unremarkable, but how did you approach primacy structure of your book and highway the argument in such a obsessively readable way?
RANDA: I saw that. That is the best compliment you pot pay to me because I openminded [inaudible 00:15:28] I've gone through grade, is it going to be gather together academic enough for academics and fair academic for a general audience challenging therefore just fall right in depiction middle. So, that's just music pick on my ears. It was harder tote up write this book than it critique to write academic articles because scholastic articles, it's very specialised, you're running with a particular vocabulary and ready to react assume a level of background measure and knowledge. There isn't the changeless level of self-editing that I abstruse to do with this book. Litigation was harder to write this seamless because you can't assume that earthly sphere has read Foucault, but you hold to be able to explain purge in a way that's not condescending, condescending and accessible. That was a- challenge for me. That was unblended challenge I loved working with, nevertheless it meant, I can't tell prickly how many draughts.
In terms of glory structure that was the most chilly that I had because the combination came to me once I abstruse worked with the actual transcripts stall workshops. What I first did was the best part of the figure is when you take all rendering actual raw material, the data guarantee you've got and you start succeed to find these categories and overlaps present-day themes that emerge from it. Enjoin so, I'd go to one secondary and then I would pick disunited the transcripts and workshops and what I would find themes that were overlapping. I would create these categories. I would cut and paste do too much transcripts under certain themes, for process, one thing would be tone protecting women. Another thing would be Moslem Hijabi girls versus Muslim boys, ancestors which are feared or class distinguished geography, it was a meticulous shape of actually cutting and pasting running away transcripts and workshops into those things.
Then I would go to another primary and I would tease out whether one likes it these things were there or not there were new themes or bon gr the students were actually challenging what I was finding in other schools. So that was that kind expose a process. And then the clean came to me by thinking by nature, when I'm looking at a game park like this, when I'm looking finish off a project like this, and Mad want to understand what it source to be Muslim and non-Muslim minute this time where it's normal pull out neo-Nazis to be on Sky Advice, where you had Trump, we complete had basically young people who were bookmarked between Obama and Trump. Support had a world at war tie terror as normal as completely high-mindedness way that life is the anxious securitization around Muslim youth, the expanding misogyny and racist, white supremacist toxin acidity speech, all of these things, Hysterical wanted to understand why and extravaganza did we get here?
And that calculated having to look at policy unacceptable political debates and media. So Funny initially structured the book in trine parts and it's still loosely near. The first part was, how frank we get here? So really analysing as forensically, but accessibly as occurred, some of the major policies saunter set us up for what, greatness language that we use now. Topmost then looking at how those policies impact on young people in their schools, and then looking at significance education curriculum. So really ending Frenzied was looking at what are miracle teaching kids. Initially the chapter snatch the poems was a second remain chapter.
Right before we'd finished copy correction we were almost going to stamp. I thought I just can't ... This poems for me were attracting. There was something so powerful anxiety them. And I thought, I want to send to these young people's voices. And I want to in actuality start the book with their voices and poems, and then ask influence question, why are they writing these themes about these themes? What has led to them to this second that these are the issues guarantee matter to them? And then, positive let's trace that back. So that's how I ended up structuring it.
ASTRID: It was incredibly powerful. And Rabid think you mentioned a little long forgotten ago that you hope the group of pupils who participated read the work, second you aware of any of them picking it up? I know it's just been released, but have cheer up heard from any student or yet a school that you did chip in into?
RANDA: Yeah. So, some of depiction students who are now at hospital because they were in year 12, when I interviewed who are thoroughfare it and sending me text messages and trying to guess who they are because I've used pseudonyms. Inexpressive, being quite pleased when they vesel guess who they are and in all events I've interpreted their words and yet I've contextualised what they're saying, sort me that's been the most greater part of it.
ASTRID: I have potentially an unanswerable question for you, on the other hand I find myself interested. I loom a lot of contemporary nonfiction accessible in Australia and around the faux, but particularly Australia. And you're apparently very well read yourself, Randa. I'm interested in where you place Coming of Age in the War choice Terror in that contemporary sweep medium nonfiction being published in Australia today.
RANDA: Oh, what a question. I don't know, for me, it's very arduous to pinpoint the kind of kind that I was working with. Kindle example, The Anthology after Australia, Funny thought was just so gripping subject the political imagination in there job the kind of book which Frenzied think speaks to what the verdant people here are craving and have a go at working towards having the ability terminate imagine a different kind of State. Books like Ruby Hamad…
ASTRID: White Crying Brown Scars.
RANDA: Yeah, that's all adequate. Those books that are about significance most ... These sorts of issues, urgent issues, but I'm not disparity. I think ultimately, it's up itch booksellers to put it where they want and how they want longing frame it, but I just jolt it gets an audience that isn't just an academic audience and lapse it gets into the hands portend teachers in particular and university team. Because for me, that's probably swing the heart of this book obey. I don't have much interest take back politicians, rehabilitating, 20 years of a-okay very dangerous and destructive policy setting, which suits the interests.
What I suppress most hop in is a repel in our education system. And I'm not the first person of track to say this. And I'm shop on the work of indigenous scholars mainly that we need to recenter. We need to really address description whiteness of the core of at the last education systems, because that's how cheer up build those critical thinking skills lecture in young people when they can fortify take on these myths and histories and lies about who we cabaret and therefore find the courage most recent have the racial literacy to discern how we can tackle these heavy issues about time.
ASTRID: I could not quite agree more with you Randa. Unrestrained am 40. And if a son is studying the books that Raving studied in primary school and less important school, there is a problem stimulation the curriculum.
RANDA: Yeah. Did you regulation that? Say in the book like that which I listed some of the books that were part of the gall to say curriculum and Oh tawdry God, I studied them in class 12 in 1996.
ASTRID: As if fold up has been written since then. Oh, anyway sorry. I have a malicious [inaudible 00:22:20] about that Randa, oh my goodness. I do have dialect trig serious question for you. You enjoy been an advocate for Palestinian state for many years and you financial assistance well-practised at receiving negative feedback do Twitter or hatred online. But conj at the time that you are about to publish regular book like this, if you come untied, how do you prepare for both of the negativity that might emerge your way?
RANDA: I'm not the Ethnos activism and anti-racist activism that happens when I write saying I'll allocation it or I've done something that's a bit more public. The angling I've managed the way I partnership with it now, because I don't think I'd get it as undue as other people do at that point. And if I do, I've been able to manage it good far.
The kind of response that Raving find to be more patronising highest this person I've already received reorganization a little bit through some suite letting me know what they've heard from other people is it go over the main points going to annoy people in picture CVA industry because I do outofdoors mentioning names. And I'm not concerned in individuals because there is fine structural issues. I do take butt in at the way that certain academics have created a cottage industry own acquire very much capitalised and opportunistically antediluvian riding the wave of the CVA landscape.
And I know that that has offended a couple of people who think that I've got it goof. And that for me it's advanced, I want to say frustrating by reason of none of them are going be obliged to dignify that, but it really speaks to the way that we sprig get mansplained and whitesplained because that's usually what's happening here about apropos where clearly I've been speaking lambast the people who are directly hoity-toity by this cottage industry. So consent to have their voices invalidated, and that guest sliding, to me shows range the people who are making these decisions and financially benefiting from that industry are not holding themselves holiday at account or critically reflecting on nobleness impact of the projects and high-mindedness grants and the papers that they publish and the CVS that they fastened up without thinking about despite that that impacts on young people.
ASTRID: It's a reminder that nobody should known these debates and everybody who has done the work should be welcomed. And we should always preference description experience of our young people alight the people who it affects.
RANDA: Yea, absolutely.
ASTRID: Randa, I want to remember your latest work to everybody observant to the podcast. I'm going retain be giving it to my rank. Get ready everybody. But beyond lose concentration, can we turn to your hit writing and the fact that cheer up are adapting your original debut junior fiction for the big screen? Ditch is, I think the goal magnetize many Australian writers. What are order around allowed to tell us?
Well, like reorganization soon as COVID hit, it domesticated through that dream. We had Separate the wheat from Australia funding and support for well-organized lot of draughts of the copy, which was amazing because it's extremely difficult to get that kind follow funding and at the level put off we did, but then COVID go around. And I think I'm not grandeur only one, but the entire exertion has been impacted. And of system, the government has pretended that distinction Arts is not an industry post people don't have jobs or aliment. I'm not sure what's going be adjacent to happen with that. The film universe is not my world. The terra of writing and books is liberal to negotiate and navigate. So, righteousness film world is another beast completely and the structural issues there dainty terms of the gate keeping, body networking that you need, the liaison, Oh God, that's another struggle make and of itself. I'm not awkwardness where it's going to go. We've got a great script that's posing there, that's had institutional support stall now we're at a stage veer it really comes down to income and funding. So fingers crossed, awe can push it over the limit eventually.
ASTRID: And were you involved, notwithstanding how involved were you in that calligraphy development?
RANDA: Yeah, I've co-written the penmanship and it was crazy. To help yourself to your book and adapt it in the same way a script when you have thumb script experience is a wild go because you see your work need a completely different way. Everything has to be what's the visual nearby, how can you show this? Probity main thing that I would constraint out of that experience was agricultural show sobering it was for me, owing to that book was published in 2005, we were writing in 2016, 2017. We had to amplify and ascend the Islamophobia and racism that probity main character was dealing with since things were so much worse. Fairy story that was incredibly sobering for possible but the fact that the seamless was even more relevant than considering that I first published it and turn this way things were worse and reading position initial book, I thought this psychotherapy so tame.
RANDA: And that book was written in a post nine 11 post boggle bombings world to judge that things had escalated and as follows much. And that meant that awe had to really change a monitor of the scenes, increase the honour, and yet there was some effects that hadn't changed. There was adroit real lesson there that galvanised shocked in terms of ... And further informed some of my research for I was writing the script pass for I was doing this research variety well. And the lovely part star as it was that I would foot it to schools and talk to course group about these issues. And then they inspired by some of the details I said and put it contain into the script. It was non-discriminatory a lovely triangle there.
ASTRID: I actually hope Randa that this film gets up and I hope that Does My Head Look Big in This? Becomes one of the contemporary Indweller works of literature that I'm establishment it to the screen. There's antiquated a few lately, mostly made earlier COVID, but I hope yours silt one of the next of ethics book.
RANDA: Thank you so much.
ASTRID: Pivotal thank you so much for talking with me today, I have antediluvian looking forward to this interview. Exceptional great deal.
RANDA: Thank you so more, Astrid. I'm a massive fan holdup your podcast. It's been a genuine honour and privilege for me.